Labouring after a Yes

There’s a fair bit of obsession with what happens after a No vote. I’ve written about it myself and believe that it will pile unbelievable pressure on Labour as the lead No party to deliver something meaningful against the immediate post-election wishes of the English people.

And just imagine what will happen if Labour doesn’t win the election, which some commentators think is already a given. They will have – how long – ten years of derision to face in Scotland as another Tory-led government cuts spending and sends ever more families into poverty. They will be bystanders again as the hammer falls and rest of the Scotland will demand to know why they allowed themselves to be conned into voting No.

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I see the Great Labour thinker Douglas Alexander is sounding off again about how important it is for us all to join hands in favour of devolution after a No. I think that is likely to happen anyway because we will be in impasse again and seeking a way out. The people will have spoken and the SNP and Yes will have to accept their verdict while maintaining their position of favouring independence.

I also don’t buy this whiny weasel narrative about us not getting on together. Why wouldn’t we? If your politics really is so hateful that you can’t shake the hand of an opponent afterwards, you shouldn’t be in the game at all. But then I think it’s a mask to wear while they denigrate the Yes campaign as nasty, bigoted, narrow and – thanks to Willie Rennie – dogs. Nobody mentions the foul pro-Union bile on the Scotsman website, or the anti Scottish tirades in the Telegraph, Mail and Express. And don’t believe the claims of the Vote No Borders crowd. They were monstored by Scots insulted at their lies that they were grass-roots when they’re anything but and disgusted that the national broadcaster embarrassed itself again by lapping up unsubstantiated PR spin in a desperate attempt to big up opposition to independence.

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VNB were found out for what they are – charlatans. And they didn’t like it. This wasn’t cybernatery. This was people power exposing the rich and mendacious who are trying to manipulate our referendum result. (When did you last hear of a millionaire financier too timid to cope with online critics?)

But surely the question Douglas Alexander should be asking – and answering – is What happens if there’s a Yes? What DO Labour do then? They have boxed themselves into such a corner by belittling their own country’s self-government, that I’m not sure all Scots will have a warm embrace for them…a cheery two-fingered wave perhaps but since not a word has been expended on countenancing the possibility of life after a Yes by Labour, it’s hard to see what they might bring to the table. Aren’t we entitled to ask?

It’s one thing to say you don’t want to consider life after a Yes – although they have spent the entire campaign insisting that the pro-Yes side do just that – but quite another to conceal your objective. This after all, will be a new country, the rebirth of a nation. The history is undeniable, as will be Labour’s part in it. How do you credibly state that you don’t know if you’ll participate? Will they ask to be part of the negotiating team? Could they be trusted? Normally, that wouldn’t be an issue but after Labour’s vitriol and personal smearing, allied to their clearly expressed allegiance to the British state, it becomes a fair question. Indeed, when you think about it, a declaration of some kind expressing commitment to the Scottish people in the light of a referendum Yes seems entirely in keeping.

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The talks will be in deadly earnest – no room for doubters or passengers. I imagine that ‘the Scottish leader’ – if it is still Johann (try Ladbrokes for odds) – will need to make a statement clarifying her position, indicating that she either stands by her analysis of independence as bad for Scotland, in which case she removes herself from the scene, or she puts it down to the campaign – sidestepping her ‘virus’ comments – and declares herself committed to the new Scotland and at her country’s service. That leaves it up to Salmond what role, if any, she has.

It is plain wrong in my view not to open up your voters to what your position might be after. There is too much of the North Korea about a line that proclaims everything that way is evil, we must not countenance it. Apart from anything, it makes you look like a dumbbell when people vote against you and ask the obvious question.

But you see, they’ve said the shipyards will close. How can they be part of a negotiating team insisting they stay open when the London talks leader can simply reply: But YOU agreed with us about that….

How can they be part of the negotiating team when they think our relatives will become foreigners. Scotland may well ask for an Irish clause saying Scots will not be foreigners and London can reply that was what Labour wanted.

When a team with Labour on board argues to be rid of Trident, London will say Trident retention was Labour’s idea.

When Scotland asks for the maritime border to be redrawn further south, they will say ‘but it was Labour who put it there.’

And what WILL Labour members of the Scottish team say when the Treasury tells them they don’t want to share the pound?

And here’s a thought. If it’s true Scotland becomes a foreign country, Labour can’t hold on to the London party’s coat-tails and take their money. They really will have to think again. Maybe they could take advice from the truly independent Scottish party, you know, the one that spreads a virus. No, I think it’s time Douglas Alexander, as officially the only Scottish Labour representative who thinks, should cast his mind to life after a Yes.

(See you in Perth tomorrow)

 

 

 

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76 thoughts on “Labouring after a Yes

  1. My personal view is that all Unionist politicians should be excluded from holding public office for a period of time after Independence. They simply do not deserve to represent the people of Scotland. This is not an emotional response, it is arrived at because they cannot be trusted to the right thing.
    Lets face it, at the moment not one Unionist MP is actually representing his/her constituents with the best of intentions. If they can’t do it now, then why would they do it in the future?
    In addition, Independence effectively ends the chosen career path of every single Unionist MP and Peer. On the present evidence, e.g. Ian Davidson and Jim Hood in the Commons, I wouldn’t want them to be in any position with power as they may misuse it to undermine Scotland, they are, after all, British Nationalists and bitterness may cloud their future judgement.
    These are dangerous men and woman.
    As for Unionist MSPs and Councillors, they require to be honest with their future constituents. They need to state that they are pro or against Scotland and then let the voters decide.

    • Ontheotherhand

      Of course by your argument should there be a no vote then SNP and Green politicians should be excluded!

    • I think that is a very dangerous stance to adopt. It gives fuel to those who would depict iScotland as an intolerant and one-party state. If iScotland is to succeed, (and I am sure it will), then all those who can contribute, must do so. If they were previously opponents, then they must be made allies.

      My partner is a South African with 30 years experience in journalism, who covered Mandela’s release, and saw how that government was able to work with former opponents for the good of the country. I would hope that a new Scotland could emulate Mandela’s government. iScotland is Better Together with other Scots of all ilks, not bitter together in spite and revenge.

      • I would much rather the public (when they have been made fully aware by a new and balanced news service) are given the opportunity to run these characters tarred and feathered (metaphorically) out of town on a rail. the ire of the voters will show those people the error of their ways,
        public humiliation is my preferred path.

  2. Donald Carthlan

    I hope that immediately post a YES vote there is a clause enacted excluding unionist MP’s or MSP’s from holding any kind of office. There is simply NO way that the likes of Ian Davidson, Willie Rennie or Johann Lamont would negotiate in Scotland’s interests.

  3. If I were sitting abroad and thinking of a country to invest in taking into account all that has been said about Scotland over the last couple of years It would be the last place I would want to put my money. We have been depicted as the most stupid backward country on the face of the earth

    The unionists have much to answer for regardless of how the vote ends up They are the most loathsome lowlife, who care not what damage they do to our country

    The trough has much appeal

  4. We want to be inclusive. We want to be consensus driven. The SG have even been foresighted enough to declare their intent to form a team Scotland for the negotiation period.

    Hmmmm… How and ever the thought of any of the current Labour, Liberal or Conservative leadership being part of such an important cross party team leaves me somewhat cold. They would not IMO have earned the right to represent their electorate in such an important and historic role. Their conduct, their language, their clear intent over the past eighteen months has been nothing short of appalling. This conduct has resembled neither politics, nor campaigning and brought disgrace to our parliament.

    No I’d probably look to either past politicians or those who have avoided embroiling themselves in the worst excesses of the current strategies employed by both BT and Westminster. We could all probably list some likely candidates, but certainly Lamont, Davidson and Rennie should be allowed nowhere near any negotiating team.

  5. I would be very concerned about any Unionist being given a role in an independent Scotland. It would seem to be a given that they would want to reinstate the Union as soon as possible. However, we can be conforted by the the thought that a lot of them will probably want to go and live south of the border.

  6. “Of course we’ll get on, Dougie.

    The jobs are gone. Fine. Ye destroyed our jobs, the ones Thatcher hadn’t got round to, and voted for more destruction. And you’ll be forever my best pal.

    I’ve one too many bedroom and face destitution. And you voted for it. OF course you will remain my best pal. No harm done at all.

    And from my park bench, too exhausted to move because yet another social worker thought a thought emergency could wait for five days, as you pass by, of course I’ll get on with you, of course I’ll mind my manners and congratulate you on your new housing allowance and fantastic new tax-payer funded suit. You don’t think I’d be bitter at the trashing of my life at the ballot box do you? No. Of course not. The Scots who have have made sure I know my place. It’s in the gutter with nothing to eat and a boot in my face where it leaves the words “Rude” and “Selfish” imprinted if I dare, as a good, well trained working class Scot if I dare as much as whisper the words “You trashed my life because it suited you and your over-inflated wage packet, all of you, You made a living out of herding me and my community about as though we were farm animals.” The I’m Alright Jacks, trashed me just like Maggie did.”. I wouldn’t dare not get on with you. Millions of Scots are there ready to hurl the word “Abuse” at me if I dare not be your friend.

    “All friends no matter how cruel or vicious we are. ” How very Orwellian, Scotland.

    How many Denis Currans will it take for the revolting arrogant elites and middle classes to give a damn, pay more than lip services, about more then their own wee friendships and comfy lives?

    Pass me the acid trip. There is more rationality to be found in an acid trip than there is to be found in modern day stomach churning middle class and elite Scotland.

    • Aye, Helen, that will dae fir me.

    • Sad to say Viking Girl that when it comes to stomach churning I have found it recently among the working class, not the middle classes though I dare say it will be there too. I have not heard much of that we were too poor and too stupid to run our country from those who do the thinking, but ask a wee woman working in Asda and you might get a big surprise, she isn’t worried if the lassie next door is having a hard time with British welfare, deserves it, she doesn’t worry that she will be working till she dies, after all the Labour Party will look after her.
      I certainly do not want any supporters of Better Together having a hand in negotiations and I want to see “Scottish” Labour humiliated. Then we may just may get some politicians worth a damn, but it will take a while for utopia to emerge from the ruins of the opposition. What they have done is much worse than the Devolution Referendum, they have tried to destroy their country for the benefit of another.

  7. No matter which Labour politicians might be included in any post-YES negotiations on the division of assets and liabilities, there must be no place for Ian “Separashun” Davidson among their number. His disgraceful comment that “all that will remain to be done after a NO vote, will be the bayoneting of the wounded!” excludes him automatically.

  8. Not a ingle unionist should be allowed in our negotiating team , not one

  9. I have as much trust in any of our unionist politicians as I have in the MSM, zilch.

  10. An Duine Gruamach

    I’d like to have Henry McLeish on board.

    • I agree with you, An Duine Gruamach. And there’s a few quiet members at the back of Lamont’s class who appear to be ready and willing to assist in the push towards Scotland’s bright future. Now, time to cheer up!

    • Mr Chisolm might be another possible candidate. For the other two teams possibly Murdo springs to mind and frankly I draw a blank on the Lib Dems. 😀

      They have form on speaking out against current party lines and strategy. All our parliamentarians need to be reading from the same page on the day though. In the event of negotiations, the Scottish electorate’s needs must come first.

    • “I’d like to have Henry McLeish on board.”

      You want to end up giving away your seas to England really?

  11. We are going to need negotiators who understand basic economics and what is required to run a country.
    That,for me,excludes most of the British Labour party.
    No current Westminster MP should be allowed anywhere near these negotiations or our written constitution.
    People out with party politics will have to be involved.
    Thanks Derek

  12. Derek, I’m sure that you’re right. However.

    There is a wee part of me which would derive a certain malicious satisfaction from seeing a negotiating team headed up by Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon and including Alistair Darling, Johann Lamont, Councillor Terry Kelly and John MacIntyre OBE. Blair McDougall could be included for tea boy purposes.

    It might mean two extra years of Trident but boy, it would be worth it.

  13. Having taken the British unionist position throughout this entire referendum campaign, would a unionist in Team Scotland be negotiating for Scotland or Britain? I think we know the answer to that.

  14. Douglas et al had better hope there is a Yes vote because they are a lot less likely to be forgiven if there is a No vote.

  15. In May 2016, an independent Scotland will be in an interesting place politically as we wait to see just what sort of Phoenix will rise out of the ashes of the current Labour train crash and where it will actually fit back in to the political spectrum in Scotland. Will the STUC and the Unions continue to fund the current Scottish Labour set up (distinctly right wing in character tarnished by and remaining in cahoots with the Liberals and Conservatives) or will they back a new Labour Party built on the Labour for Independence movement and look to squeeze the Greens and SSP on the left.

    I think it is simple, to the victors the spoils – Dennis Cavanan, the Greens, even a place for Colin Fox in the main negotiating team. Maybe also a role for Henry McLeish and possibly Alex Fergusson but then again why? These two epitomise the past and the Scottish Cringe writ large.

    As for Murphy and his Blairite faction just what is there left in Scotland for them?

    I suggest the likes of Dougy Alexander and Murphy himself will be seeking to line themselves up for a ‘Labour’ safe seat in England fairly quickly after a ‘yes’ vote.

  16. I think that Scottish Labour have really burnt all their bridges behind them and I can see no way back for them. About the only one who would do an honest job would be McLeish. For the Libdems Michael Moore told his constituents that if there’s a yes he will work hard for the good of his constituents and an independent Scotland. I suppose in the Tories Jackson Carlaw has sort of said he will do the same

  17. I certainly wouldn’t allow the charlatans in the labour party near any post independence negotiating.They Scottish MPs turned the other way when Blair moved the maritime boundary.That alone is an act of absolute treason and should never be forgotten.It might not have any bearing on international law but they thought it did at the time.A party that has spent its whole life trying to hold Scotland for its own gains should be put out in the wilderness forever more.The people will have spoken after a Yes vote and it will be to reject sichophants not invite them to do more harm to an independent Scotland.Finally the level of talent and intelligence within Scottish labour is so bereft what could they actually contribute.Trumped up town councilors should not be anywhere near international negotiations its too important!

    • Sorry big Jock
      I didn’t even read your post, but it does highlight how disingenuous they were that many people see that disreputable action for what it was,
      AN ACT OF PIRACY.

    • dennis mclaughlin

      Well said Big Jock, a lot of Scottish people would wholeheartedly agree !.

  18. I have heard it said that Scottish MP’s in the event of a YES vote, may come back to get a place in Holyrood. Aye right, who of us would want to see these intellectual idiots at FQ’s?
    I for one, would rather they stayed in London.

    Or, there is that wee island off the West Coast, where they tested germ warfare, that would do them fine, they could all be sympathetic with each other, and discuss where the went wrong around the camp fire. Well, I will try and dream that one anyway, it would be most fitting!

  19. By joining the Tories in opposing Scottish aspirations and doing down Scotland …….. how do I put it …….. ah yes…….. Labour can go and F**K itself.

  20. Correct Gillie they only become Scottish if there are no other jobs going! As I said charlatans!

  21. Will the Lab/Con/Lib parties as they are currently constituted be able to exist in an independent Scotland? If they are really just branches of, and funded by, the UK Lab/Con/Lib parties then won’t they have to disolve and reform as truly Scottish parties?

    On the matter of who should be eligible to play for Team Scotland during the negotiations it would be very hard to take seeing any Westminster MP from the Lab/Lib/Con in the team. They could be in the position of negotiating against the very party they’ve been representing. How credible would that be?

    There are many others in Scotland who could be asked to play for Team Scotland. And they’re not all from the current political space. Maybe JFK had it right all those years ago and we’ll have our “Ask not what your country can do for you…” moment.

    (looking forward to seeing you tomorrow night in Perth)

  22. I hope that the Labour Party disappears from Scotland after the referendum, whatever the result.

    Having said that, we shouldn’t judge the party by the handful of unprincipled thugs who form its front bench, tempting though that is. Remember there is LFI and I’ve been to meetings where they spoke, and I felt their pain. I have a very close friend of many years standing who is a Labour Party member and a definite No voter. I really don’t know why that is, but I’d trust him with my life and at least once I have done. This stuff ain’t simple.

    There are people in the Labour Party who would be constructive members of a negotiating team. We just don’t know their names yet.

  23. I don’t mind unionists per se sitting on a negotiating team i.e. Michael Moore said he’d work for the good of his people in a post-independence vote. However, I think it would be completely unforgivable for Johann Lamont to be anywhere near any public office ever again. Her ‘Scots not genetically programmed for political decision making’ was the most profoundly shocking piece I’ve heard through this whole debate. (Although, bringing about the destruction of mankind is pretty high up there but it does at least attribute us being some kind of maniacal genius in being able to bring that to bear!)

    I will never forget her statement for many reasons:

    1. Insulting her constituents (who made the political decision to elect her) and those around the country.
    2. Insulting every single one of her colleagues (who made the political decision to represent their fellow countrymen)
    3. Insulting herself (who made the political decision to represent – well herself mostly).
    4. Insulting the nation that educated her and gave her her livelihood.

    Finally, she put her fellow Scots down to a level below an amoeba. We make political decisions every day, whether it be family, friend or work related – all to preserve our way of life. Animals make political decisions in order to ensure the survival of the species, in the same way we do. Single cells team up with other cells to drive out harmful cells. Political decision making is in every fibre of our beings, consciously and unconsciously and for her to say that we are incapable is a slap in the mouth to every one of us. How can anyone in good conscience vote for or trust a women who thinks so very little of us and even herself when she doesn’t think we are even capable of tying our shoelaces?

    Oh and Rennie calling us dogs because we stand against would-be fascists. Any of the other unionists who said we are too wee, too poor, etc, or that the SNP, and by corollary Alex Salmond, are fascists or Hitlerite should be immediately barred from political office.

    • In all fairness, her comment in context was that Scots are not some sort of superior race who will automatically always make the right decisions. We have our share of charlatans, fools and the corruptible like anyone else. And Lamont should know, as the leader of SLAB.

  24. Its a bit like the Tory MPs who campaigned against devolution.They didn’t think they were wrong but quite happily took the benefit of msp,s jobs after Holyrood was reinstated.I still wouldnt trust them.To them being an mp is just a career. They care little about Scotland just fancy the salary and the title.Why should dimwits like Lamont just walk back into the parliament they campaigned to stop?

  25. Labour are finished . They have abused their positions to cast Scotland as idiots who cannot think for ourselves. The party of the people couldn’t even turn up for a vote to end bedroom tax….. Team Scotland can choose from Scots who have striven to enlarge the image of Scotland…. Even a couple of NO voters too but never any of the bitter together thugs who have lied ,cheated and abused their positions as our elected leaders. They have made Scotland a laughing stock and in my eyes they are nothing short than TRAITORS.

    Refusing to debate and use of scares and smears has opened many an eye to the truth that our “OWN REPRESENTATIVES ” are puppets for a Tory led Westminster.

    Labour and Tory;s up a tree

    K I S S I N G

    The people of Scotland will wake up on the 19th and get on with building our country. No fuss or drama. Thats what they always do. I have faith in them .

    Bt will have left the building

  26. I might contemplate politicians from pro-Union parties being involved in discussions on the details of an independence settlement if I could be persuaded that their true motive wasn’t simply to move their snouts from a trough that is about to vanish, and get them stuck deep into the bottom of what they perceive to be a new trough likely to be filled for them.

    Being persuaded of that, however, would take considerably greater powers of oratory than any of our current MPs possess. Many MPs, particularly those in the Labour party, are simply not very bright, time-served hacks who can be counted on to vote as instructed by the party, firstly due to their party allegiance (they’re not going to risk their material wealth by biting the hand that feeds them), secondly because they’re not capable of intelligent reflection on complex (or even simple) issues, and thirdly because they’ve lost all sense of fairness and moral compass. What improvement can any of these MPs point to on issues such as poverty and unemployment on their decades long occupation of power in Scotland? Whilst I can see the argument for cross party discussions involving MSPs from various parties, I think that the idea of any MPs being involved in such discussions is simply a nonsense.

    I also believe that pro-union MPs have no possible hope of any sort of political career in an independent Scotland, because the electorate will be reminded of their doom-laden pronouncements in the House of Commons. As for the Lords, they have no value to the UK, never mind an independent Scotland. The Labour party in Scotland has yet to wake up to the mess it’s got itself into. I am in my 60s, and until the last 5 years or so, have been a consistent Labour voter at local, Holyrood, Westminster and European elections. I cannot conceive of the circumstances, irrespective of the outcome of the referendum, under which I would ever vote for them again. I think I’m far from alone in holding this view. I cannot express my disappointment at what the Labour party has become. We most certainly need a left of centre party involved in government in Scotland, but the current Scottish branch of the Labour party isn’t it.

  27. Meant to mention that it’s important for Labour voters to see that their party is represented at the negotiating table, whatever we dreadful Nats might think of them.

  28. Yes its an issue of trust.Once you take that away its nearly impossible to get it back in politics.I wouldn’t trust any of the current labour msps.But its not just that.There genuinely is a gulf in talent between the unionist msps and the current Scottish government.The SNP seems to attract creative progressive people.Maybe its because they got into politics to make Scotland better rather than hold it back like labour maps.Let’s face it most of the labour msps are there because a certain element in Scotland just vote labour without knowing any of their policies.If they did they wouldn’t vote for them.So really its just a free meal ticket these guys want.

  29. … I’ll add a touch of levity, if that’s OK by yerself Derek, the real Scottish Leader is 70% proof…. but the one who is rated as the Labour Scottish Leader is as weak as Adams Ale.

  30. Labour or more correctly New Labour have made themselves unelectable in an Independent Scotland by siding with the Tories. Johann Lamont, Anas Sarwar, Alistair Darling and co will likely not see any position of power again. They may still get votes from obviously the people that voted No, but it will never be enough to form any sort of government. Personally for the negotiating Team Scotland, I would like to see Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and Patrick Harvie lead the way, with the rest possibly coming from organisations like National Collective, RIC and other pro-indy parties and independents. I don’t think that those campaigning to stay in the union should be given the chance to be apart of the negotiations because, as others said, their loyalties do not lie with Scotland but with the UK. Although I’m not really a SNP voter (but I did in the last election because Indy was the prize) I do realise that the SNP have moved substantially to the left. The supposed right-center party is now more left wing than New Labour. I never quite got the “Tartan Tories” name for them either, I always assumed that Tartan Tories were the Scottish Conservatives in all honesty. I don’t think Ian Davidson, who unfortunately is my MP, is fit for Holyrood. Nor is Johann Lamont, again my MSP – how unlucky am I lol?? I don’t think they should be banned from running for election, but I hope they have the decency to not run after the way they have talked Scotland down over the years.

  31. douglas clark

    There are very good people who speak well representing all sorts of opinions. None of them are in the traditional role of representing Labour, the Tories or the Liberals. I would trust them to represent us all in any negotiations.

  32. Never under estimate the will of politicians to turn tail and make it look as though they are following the will of the electorate and the faux proYes stance being something they had wrestled with for a long time.
    If the polls get close and the Pro indy support is still rising then you’ll see a few self preservation type jumping the fence. Now to get these we have to welcome them, its obvious some have the Clegg factor, so ensconced in the BT there will be no coming back they may try but the electorate will be the harshest judge.

  33. Pentland Firth

    The team which conducts post Yes negotiations on behalf of our country must be representative of the nation as a whole. It cannot simply comprise SNP ministsrs with a few Green and SSP “add ons” and a token LFI member. There are many potentially useful people with considerable expertise in conducting negotiations, but who carry with them some Unionist baggage whether of a Labour, Liberal Democrat, or Conservative variety, whose participation should be at least considered. There are also many others with no clear party political background who can add their valuable knowledge and experience to the negotiating team. We should aim to include talent, not exclude it. There is room for many political views in a “Big Tent”, the only views to be excluded are of those who exclude themselves by a refusal to accept the reality of an independent Scotland. The team would necessarily be led by SNP ministers, and, to be clear, I cannot envisage the likes of Jo Lamont (and other fanatical British Nationalists) having any role to play, but there are many patriots who are currently in the Don’t Know or even the No camp who I’m sure would be willing to offer useful service in the event of a Yes vote. They are democrats who will accept the voters’s verdict, and who consider their first loyalty to be to Scotland. Let Scotland be big hearted and it will flourish.

  34. Paul Goodbrand

    I’d be excluding the likes of Lamont, Rennie et al, not on the basis of their unionism, but on the basis that they are incapable. There are smarter people to be found on Facebook groups than in the upper reaches of the “regional” branches of these Establishment parties.

  35. I’ll find it pretty difficult to trust the likes of Anas Sarwar, Jim Murphy or Douglas Alexander to fight Scotland’s corner in negotiations. It would mean working productively with the SNP, and I just don’t think they’re capable of it. These people are party politicians first and foremost, and will not want to do anything that damages the UK Labour party that they will still be a part of.

    It’s going to take a generation for me to trust any politician from whatever these parties become after independence. For me, anyone who has been prominent in the anti-independence campaign simply cannot continue afterwards and retain credibility, unless they do some serious public eating of humble pie.

    • Doug, agreed, but I’m afraid I cannot accept that by eating humble pie that makes them somehow acceptable! For my part, I would like to see Mr McKee and/or Mr Kemp-MacIntyre in there somewhere.

  36. For me – the No campaign in portraying Scotland as nothing more than a burden on the UK, have made “Britishness” and British identity, so loathsome, so wretched, that frankly its a term I won’t use except for geographically or to describe an ideology that is foreign to me. If that was bettertogether’s plan all along, then please Mr Alexander – stand up take a bow. If not then what the hell where you thinking.

    Do these idiots think that after all this, those of us who voted yes are ever going to feel or want to be part of the UK? Nothing is ever going to be the same again. If they have plans for devolution post no, then lets hear them – but if there is anything in their plans that talks of stripping powers or cuts, then let make their own case to the voter. They fought for no, they should bear the consequences for it, not try and fob it off on the SNP to make the case for them. When you think about it, this sounds like a plea from a party that knows it will lose in 2015 and 2016 and his hoping that pure apathy will see it through in 2014. I am struggling to think of any political movement that tried to get its opponents to take on its responsibilities. I can’t think of one instance in history were any party has the brass neck to try and distance itself from the result it campaigned for.

    Scottish labour have turned into a truly wretched entity. I never had any time for the Lib-dems as I knew that they would sell out any principle for a seat at the table. The Tories I have never trusted and always regarded them as worthy of nothing but contempt. But Scottish labour – I don’t know if there is a term for political senility but “Scottish Labour” syndrome might do the trick.

  37. Given the one-sidedness of the monstering in the referendum campaign I will find it extremely difficult to be magnanimous if Yes wins.

    If No wins I don’t think I will ever be able to forgive those ‘journalists’ and politicians of a unionist persuasion for selling out my country. If this comes to pass I shall probably have to consider myself ‘stateless’.

    The unionist politicians should be banned from taking part in post referendum negotiations. I simply couldn’t trust that the wern’t selling us short from their own gain. That seems to be the new british way, isn’t it?

    Excellent post Helen.

  38. The start of this article paints rather a rosy picture of post-No Scotland.

    I see little reason that there would be “unbelievable pressure on Labour…to deliver something meaningful”. How would this pressure be exerted? What are we going to do if they don’t deliver?

    Vote against them at Westminster? That’s a joke: we’re not going to risk letting the Tories in.

    Vote against them at Holyrood? Who cares: a No vote will have emasculated devolution anyway, so go ahead and vote SNP for your wee debating club.

    I suspect Labour will be able to cope with any “derision” they face, especially if it’s coming from people whose complaint is that they regret their own actions in voting a certain way. Who would be really worthy of derision in that scenario?

  39. Dave Agnew . Spot on my feelings too.
    We have an abundance of talent out there , The 19th means a fresh start we can chuck oot the old and bring in the new . There are good people out there i think Team Scotland will be a right mix. And love him or hate him Mr Salmond will argue for the best for us . He’s light years ahead of the Westminster mob . No wonder they cant debate with him. it would be a public slaughter . If only eh?

  40. Douglas Alexander > Wee Despicable me ?

    Im sure Labour would put up someone as talented as the great ‘James Kelly’ to represent Scottish interests from a Labour point of view.

    Oh and on the John Smith thing at Glasgow Uni – he was no saint; would have fought independence tooth and nail (Helen Liddell crowing about this last night) and was around to know about both McCrone reports as an energy minister so …. nahhh no Saint John for me.

    Probably right that a formidable Labour name is used to front this Uni Public Service unit, although ‘contrition’ should be in the title some where as Labour in Scotland are at the very heart of all of Scotlands public authority (and other) scandals.

  41. Just wondering if Team Scotland is a wee sleeper of a policy that is designed to tempt a number of LibLabCon politicians to change sides before the vote, when they see that their tea is oot?

    That would be the coup de grâce for No

  42. As for candidates for Team Scotland, how about reps from the Greens, LFI, the Commonweal, Derek, Rev Stu, etc ?

    All other nominations to be written on a £20 note and sent to Derek, with a bottle of Burgundy (not my choice, by the way— leathery Corbieres or for white / rosé, sparkling Alsasce.)

  43. How could anyone who has fought and lied for the Union possibly be an honest broker in negotiations about an Independent Scotland? I think “Brains” Alexander will look for a safe seat in England though, by the look of the polls, they’ll be thin on the ground.

  44. dennis mclaughlin

    They all deserve to swing from the nearest tree for all their treachery against the Scottish people and State….Apologies to Margo.

  45. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7rOHYaYf-SM

    Here is a link to the artist taxi driver, I hope it is ok to link ti things here, he says it all really, well, shouts a bit but if we don’t shout Scotland will be shafted at the least and ruined completely at most.

  46. If we want to be Independent let’s really be Independent and mould how we want Scotland to be governed. Let’s get away from a mini Westminster and never again give three opposition leaders, the opportunity to waste their questions on a personal attack on any First Minister rather than ask questions which benefit their constituents.
    Let’s be honest, the Labour Party had an extraordinary long run at it and the Tories( and unionists) before that and look what happened? They smothered debate, decisions, councils, meetings because the rest of us weren’t in the gang.
    Well if nothing else, the Referendum is showing the rest of us, the majority ( whether yes or no )no longer want to be outside the gang, we are the gang.
    Imagine a Parliament , where more Independent representatives can stand or the third sector can have more of a voice , not stymied by a party system and elected not because of a red rosette or blue or yellow but because people agreed with them.
    Based on the last few years do Labour in its current set up really justify a position just because or the Tories for that matter.
    I hope ( and obviously I’m not talking September 19) I only hope the people of Scotland will recognise the power they will have regained and use it to hold anyone elected in their name to account because of their views and not their party subscription

  47. In all fairness Doug (heaven knows why) but your right she didn’t make that statement in a disparaging way, but the very fact she said it at all shows just how happy the SLAB are to make unguarded statements to the BBC/STV because they KNOW they wont be quoted out of context.
    otoh Just look at the desperate way they tried to spin the arse off Alex Salmonds comments in GQ, then we realise that if those people in the BBC/STV were even just a tiny bit balanced (I was about to add the word more but that implies they are somewhat balanced ) the YES vote would have been stratospheric, when the NO campaigns only weapon is manipulation, we know they have nothing!

  48. Labour have form for not preparing for events as their shambles of the 2011 Scottish Elections showed it would seem that they have not learned a thing. I think it will also be a matter of trust in which Unionist campaigners get to be in a negotiating team in the case of a Yes vote after all they have spent the best part of two years telling as that we are not genetically engineered to govern ourselves. How can we put our faith in them?

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